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When police shoot
Investigators work the crime scene of last week's shootings outside the Empire State Building.
August 30th, 2012
12:55 PM ET

When police shoot

By Steve Kastenbaum, CNN

(CNN) – In a flash, a gunman was killed on a busy sidewalk outside the Empire State Building. During the course of last week's shooting, nine innocent bystanders were wounded by two police officers.

When police make the decision to shoot someone, extensive training is supposed to kick in like muscle memory. After an incident like this though, police are often criticized as being too anxious to reach for their guns.

John Jay College of Criminal Justice professor, Eugene O’Donnell, says their actions are often questioned. In this case he says:

[1:15] “There’s no safe way to have a shooting on 34th Street and 5th Avenue because no matter how well trained police are, armed confrontations are always risky, always dangerous.”

So it was shoot or potentially be shot. Still, there are  rules to abide by.

Former New York City police sergeant, John Negus, says with a shooting there is a lot to think about in a very small amount of time:

[3:34] “You’re always taught if you’re going to take your gun out, what are the circumstances, what’s the justification, can you get involved, what are you going to do? But when somebody pulls out a gun, it’s self-preservation. What happens is you have a physiological reaction. You’re probably going to get an adrenalin dump. So you are a little bit panicky. And they always tell you try to get off the X, try to move for cover.”

New York’s mayor and police commissioner say it was a justified use of deadly force. Ultimately, a Manhattan grand jury will make that determination.

soundoff (271 Responses)
  1. stu jordan

    When cops shoot...civilians die.

    September 4, 2012 at 2:39 pm | Report abuse |
    • Nick

      SJ- Remind everyone who died?...... Yep still waiting.

      September 5, 2012 at 6:00 am | Report abuse |
    • jt3

      I couldn't have said it better. When a cop shoots his fire arm, some poor innocent person gets hurt. Personally, I have shot next to MANY of cops at the range and let me tell you... I fear the day that I am ever held up at gunpoint and hold my life in the hands of the cops. I have seen these people at 7-15 yards not hit crap, while my 7 year old son hits the target dead on every time. We laugh at them at the range. It is quite embarrassing to say the least.

      September 6, 2012 at 8:44 am | Report abuse |
      • Nick

        JT3- I hope your just blowing smoke. Cuz if the law enforcement are that bad i'm sorry. I have done alot of work with them on base and they can hang with us and we share t&t all the time.

        September 7, 2012 at 11:31 am | Report abuse |
  2. RestoreAmerica

    All these cops had to do was do what the FBI would have done. The FBI would not have confronted this guy in a less crowded area. Remember this suspect was on the move and had his weapon holstered in a suitcase when he was challenged by cops. The FBI would have covertly followed this suspect and apprehended this guy is a less crowded area. This situation was handled negligently and carelessly by cowboy cops plain and simple. This is no different than police commencing a high speed chase through Manhattan during rush hour...

    September 3, 2012 at 10:13 am | Report abuse |
    • Nick

      Ok listen to what you just said. "Should of done it like the FBI". They're NOT the FBI and you can't expect them to act like the FBI because they shouldn't. Each branch of law enforcement has its own job with advanced training to do that job. Do you even know the FBI's SOP and ROE's?

      September 4, 2012 at 8:57 am | Report abuse |
  3. Michael

    What happens when Police shoot... 99% of the time they MISS their target! The nation has been pro 'non lethal methods' for way too long which has made our police and other law enforcement persons way too lax on their duty to keep current and practice often at the gun range. I am nobody special however I can say that I train 2 days a month at my range and I hope to never have to use my weapon. The police need to get back to base standards. Shoot to kill no more hanky panky about tasering someone and letting them sit in jail on my (our) tax dollars for months, years or life. In some of these cases the bad guys go down without much of a fight because they still run their operations from inside prision, they get 3 meails a day, they have cable or satellite tv its bull stuff.

    September 3, 2012 at 9:17 am | Report abuse |
    • militarymike

      99% of time? Exaggerate much...

      September 3, 2012 at 10:04 am | Report abuse |
    • FreedomKing

      You are truly an idiot.

      September 3, 2012 at 12:45 pm | Report abuse |
  4. sarge325

    This was an open and shut case of justifiable use of deadly force. Grand jury? What has this CNN staffer been smoking? A suspect in a murder pulls a gun on two police officers. What are they supposed to do? Of course they will draw their weapons and shoot the person threatening them.

    Could these two police officers use more training – especially the one that moved sideways and fired one-handed? Absolutely. Should NYC stop requiring its police officers to carry handguns with unusually heavy trigger pulls? Definitely. The heavy trigger pull is supposed to make it less likely the police officer will shoot accidentally, but makes it much harder to shoot accurately.

    However, the bottom line for this story is: these two officers did exactly what they should have done at that moment.

    September 3, 2012 at 8:19 am | Report abuse |
    • Paul

      Don't blame CNN for it going to a Grand Jury. They just report it. You're right, it should be open and shut.

      September 3, 2012 at 9:00 am | Report abuse |
    • neglakay

      You dont see annything wrong at all with then shooting 9 innocent people?

      September 3, 2012 at 9:54 am | Report abuse |
    • GATECH

      Justified use of deadly force but the police officers did not do the right thing on a busy street with a "armed and dangerouse" criminal who had his gun put away. You follow and use your radio to take the guy down safely OR you have your gun out and have a bead on him before he gets his gun out. Getting caught with your gun in your holster as the fugitive has time to draw and aim his says they lost control of the situation. What happened after that is the direct result (civialinas hit directly by the police and even more by fragments).

      September 3, 2012 at 11:54 pm | Report abuse |
  5. jack

    The worst thing you can do in ANY situation is panic . Panic , most people who die when they find themselves in dangerous situations die because they panic . What if this guy was a terrorist ? What if he had 2 partners with him ? Will the cops have had time to reload ? I have seen cops from other civilized nations react to situations like this , go on youtube and watch German cops in action , they dont panic and shoot each other . This is not new , it happens everyday . After New York gets sued , I think they will reconsider how these guys are trained . Training , thats the magic word .

    September 3, 2012 at 6:55 am | Report abuse |
    • Nick

      Wow, the "T" word really? If you "What if'd" everything in your life you wouldn't even leave your house. and then german cops on youtube is your knowlege. C'mon this is getting way off subject.

      September 3, 2012 at 8:58 am | Report abuse |
  6. Kevin

    The cops did what they needed to do. They could probably use a little range time or practical shooting work, but they can't be blamed for

    September 3, 2012 at 6:47 am | Report abuse |
    • Steve

      lol...they cant be blamed for firing 16 times between the two of them and missing completely 6 of those shots...all at a single non-moving target..

      They also cant be blamed for when they did it or how they did it. The cops cant be blamed for HOW they do their job, those stupid civilians were just in the way of two great cops with great firearms skills. Oh yeah, and I have some wonderful ocean-front property for sale in colorado too, please hurry on over.

      September 4, 2012 at 10:57 am | Report abuse |
  7. 66th Strategic Command & Operations Unit.

    Lets stick a uniform and badge on you and place you in a world were everyday you known as evil because the actions of other cops who couldn't abide by the laws they were sworn to protect, Lets see you be vilified by most of the general population and then be forced to use lethal force. Have any of you ever been shot at or in crowd during a shooting? If you haven't then who are you to judge?

    September 3, 2012 at 6:14 am | Report abuse |
    • Steve

      Yes I have been shot at...and returned fire.

      The fact that two cops fired 16 times on a single, non-moving target and missed 6 times (completely missed) as well as NEEDING to fire 16 times, is sad and shows what a wreck the police force actually is. Maybe they could use a little time in the military, they train you to actually hit your target without spraying bullets everywhere. Sounds like two rookies (though they werent) pulling a gun on their first perp.

      Trust me, the cops arent there to protect you anymore. Mostly, here in Colorado at least, they are little more than revenue enforcement, looking to give out tickets or citations everywhere, but cant tell you how many times I see them just sitting in parking lots, cars opposite each other so they can just sit and chat and drink their coffee, and this is off one of the most dangerous thoroughfares in the city.

      Why patrol when you can get paid just to sit.

      September 4, 2012 at 11:02 am | Report abuse |
      • Nick

        Steve- Playing paintball with your buds doesn't count as being shot at and returning fire. If I am wrong on the point please enlighten us all of your vast experience. Air Soft, Laser Tag, no let me guess, Call of Duty Commando? Any one with live experience would judge these cops on their judgment of collateral damage and situational awareness.

        September 5, 2012 at 5:44 am | Report abuse |
  8. Rick Sadler

    Okay I just have to step in here and tell you the police did what was needed to be done. But really now they should both be sent back two to range. If you need more then two rounds at center of mass at that range you are not very good. The police have been know to think about a shoot out as a "Mad minute"( Military slang for letting loss with everything you have till it is all expended.) I know just hard it is to it is to be good with a hand gun. It takes many rounds range to become comfortable with the weapon and many more to become an expert. I would for one gladly spend more money on bullets than on caskets .

    September 3, 2012 at 6:11 am | Report abuse |
  9. JWoody907

    A good shoot by the officers. They had seconds to react to a hostile combat situation, in which they effectively neutralized the gunman who had already murdered one man in a heavy-populated area. The officer's fire, while not infallible, did not cause the majority of civilian injuries in the situation, bullet fragments caused the injuries, meaning that the officers didn't actually "shoot" most of the civilians that were wounded. Bullet fragments occur in a variety of situations, including ricocheting rounds, and over-penetration of a target, ie: going through the gunman and striking a second person.

    People need to slow down their judgement of the officer's actions. As the saying goes "Officers get 2 seconds to decide, and everyone else gets 2 months to tear it apart".

    September 3, 2012 at 4:45 am | Report abuse |
    • Nick

      One of the best posts yet. Thank you being level headed and sane.

      September 3, 2012 at 8:32 am | Report abuse |
    • Steve

      Sixteen shots at a non-moving target and six complete misses out of that sixteen.

      I am not sure what your definition of good is...but that ain't it.

      September 4, 2012 at 11:04 am | Report abuse |
  10. TomK

    The decision to take a life is a difficult one. Even in war time it goes against our basic instinct. Training, training, training........how to shoot, when to shoot, evaluate your position relative to suroundings. The decision to use deadly force is strictly based on training and current regulations/laws. I understand the adrenaline dump. But even in the military you are trained to use it to your advantage. What I don't understand is 9 innocent civilians wounded by police bullets.

    September 2, 2012 at 10:38 pm | Report abuse |
    • Opizze

      Almost all of the people wounded were wounded by FRAGMENTS from police bullets. It's possible those fragments were caused by ricochets, and it's possible those fragments were caused by bullets overpenetrating the suspects body and coming out the other side in pieces. No one leaving these messages should be quick to judge either of these officers who made a split second decision to take another human beings life, and potentially saved others around them. Would you rather they let the guy who probably WASN'T a comparable marksman take a few shots before they engaged him?

      September 3, 2012 at 1:39 am | Report abuse |
      • Mike

        Well technically 3 individuals were shot and 6 were hit my fragments. SO THATS MEANS 33% OF THE VICTIMS WERE SHOT. ALSO THESE SO CALLED "MARKSMEN" WERE LESS THEN 8 FEET AWAY WHEN THEY BEGAN SHOOTING. SO I WOULDN'T BE SURPRISED IF THE GUNMAN HAD A BETTER AIM IDIOT.

        September 3, 2012 at 3:35 am | Report abuse |
    • Judy

      My guess is most of the people on this blog have never shot a hand gun.

      September 3, 2012 at 2:20 am | Report abuse |
    • Steve

      6 out of 16 shots went completely wide missing their target.

      Thats a 38% failure rate, meaning at the range, tallying 16 shots in total, the officers barely passed with a 62% success rate. Maybe some of you feel good about having such poorly successful cops on the beat, but make a bet, this is pretty much the standard every time a cop pulls a gun.

      A population protected by a bunch of D-class officers. OH, and btw, I have fired a gun at people and have received fire back. I also am highly qualified on a vast number of weapons so, yes, I have every right in the world to judge these men and their highly substandard shooting ability. If you cant take the pressure of being a cop, then please by all means, DONT be one.

      September 4, 2012 at 11:10 am | Report abuse |
  11. TSB8C

    Two officers completely empty their weapons on a crowded street and score a less than 50% hit rate at close range. Pathetic, but according to their training. Cops are evil.

    September 2, 2012 at 10:03 pm | Report abuse |
    • Judy

      You may not think they're so evil if you need thm some day. They have to put up with a lot of crap day after day from people like you.

      September 3, 2012 at 2:17 am | Report abuse |
    • JWoody907

      Incorrect, most of the wounded civilians were hit by fragments of rounds, this does not mean they were actually "shot" with a conventional bullet. Also, the officers did not empty their clips, the standard-issue weapon for NYPD officers is the Glock 17 semi-automatic pistol, chambered in 9mm, it carries a standard 17 round magazine, with optional expansion to 19 or 33 rounds.

      September 3, 2012 at 4:40 am | Report abuse |
      • Steve

        Six out of the 16 shots were wide, missing the target completely. Ten shots entered the target, 6 went???

        September 4, 2012 at 11:12 am | Report abuse |
  12. Mike

    I wasn't there to witness whether these cops reacted properly. I can speculare as most on this board have done, but I won't do that. All I want to say is that there is such a thing as a 'terrorist cop' verses a 'good cop'. The terroist cop instills terror into the citizens he/she is sworn to protect. The good cop is just that... a GOOD cop.
    All, police officers need to work harder to identify the terrorist cops before they can unleash their terror on the people they are supposed to protect and serve. If someone was to google "bad cops", you would be disgusted with what you learned. The good cops must weed out the bad ones, as nobody else can do it without being put in jail or killed.

    September 2, 2012 at 8:59 pm | Report abuse |
  13. mark mcfarland

    The best way to stop people from always slamming the cops is for the cops to do nothing, as in this situation, they could have just waited for the shooter to run out of bullets and people to kill, no problem right.

    September 2, 2012 at 4:18 pm | Report abuse |
    • Mike

      I think a couple of things bear note: 1) The gunman had already killed who he set out to kill, so YES. 2) The gunman wounded no one. No passersby were harmed. Dang shame those officers OBVIOUSLY could not shoot as well as the gunman, don't you think?

      TRAINING was the issue here. Whoever is responsible for their training needs to be held PUBLICLY accountable.

      September 2, 2012 at 10:14 pm | Report abuse |
      • Opizze

        The above statement is absolutely disgusting to read. Seriously though? Have you ever been in a life or death situation? From what I've read about the incident the gunman HAD HIS WEAPON OUT and was whirling around to confront the officers. In that situation I suppose you would rather let him take 5 shots and risk him being a less experienced and less accurate marksman than the officers under duress? The way I understand it is he was extremely close to his target (the suspect was) when he killed him, and that makes sense because the murder was motivated by revenge. I'm just sickened at how you took a few facts and twisted it to the understanding you've come to, which shows an obvious bias against police.

        September 3, 2012 at 1:45 am | Report abuse |
        • FreedomKing

          Why shouldn't people be biased against cops? This place is turning into a Police State, and the Police are turning into the Gustapo.
          Watch this.
          [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gH9k8L3oDa4&w=640&h=390]

          September 3, 2012 at 12:53 pm | Report abuse |
      • copsaregood

        The gunman was put down too quick to harm innocent bystandards, mainly luck was in play because the couple of shots he did get off (he wasnt done shooting after killing his primary target) were missed shots. These cops just saved people's lives. I'd rather have a fragment stuck in my arm than be rotting in a casket. Most sane people (not you) would as well.

        September 3, 2012 at 2:58 am | Report abuse |
      • Nick

        Ok his vic was dead but then he draws on the police. if your stopped by the police and they see you have a weapon they order you to put it down. its only if you level said weapon at someone that they engage you as a hostile. And another point people knew he just killed someone but they walk by like its nothing until they are the back drop for a fire fight. THE MURDER IS AT FAULT FOR THE CIV'S GETTING SHOT EVEN IF THE ROUNDS CAME FROM THE COPS.

        September 3, 2012 at 8:26 am | Report abuse |
        • Steve

          Nice, Nick...so in your logic, the cops can shoot anyone as long as there is a perp in the area. It isnt their fault they shot someone, the target was in the general area.

          Nick obviously believes the cops can do no wrong and would suck up to them at a moments notice, which in turn reveals that the cops are not that great, just immortalized by sycophantic weaklings and given a pass because...well, Nick didnt really have a reason why he thinks cops can shot anyone and it isnt their fault.

          September 4, 2012 at 11:18 am | Report abuse |
    • Steve

      The killer had a single target and had put away the weapon by the time police had arrived. They then confronted him in the public area, surrounded by people and pulled their guns. The individual then pulled his gun at that time and the police opened fire, firing 16 times and missing the target completely 6 out of those 16 as there have been identified as 10 bullet wounds in the offenders body.

      That means the officers had a 62% hit rate. If you feel comfartable with someone who has an almost failing hit rate, then great for you I guess...but really, I would much prefer cops that are accurate and intelligent, rather than a two-legged firing pin.

      September 4, 2012 at 11:16 am | Report abuse |
      • Nick

        Steve your talking about randomly shooting people. Are you really that paranoid to think cops do that? No thats not what i said and if thats the only meaning you can get out of it then please jump off the highest cliff in your area. Thanks. For anyone else WITH a brain, here is the logic. If you are committing a crime and someone is killed becuase of it then you are held responsible. WIll the officers catch some flak do this? Yes because people like you. I'm all about holding people accountable but for doing there job(no idiot, i dont mean shooting civ) isn't right.

        September 5, 2012 at 5:33 am | Report abuse |
  14. Stan

    Think they could have had plain clothed armed detectives around to covertly take this guy down he was leaving the scene
    with his gun in a bag so i've read. .Yes have a uniformed presence but also have a plainclothed officers to possibly avoid innocent lives being taken or injured

    September 2, 2012 at 5:18 am | Report abuse |
    • Nick

      Please use a little G2 here. Do you think that plain clothed cops just pop out of no where? It doesnt happen like a damn movie. I bet you think they dont have to reload because they usually dont in the movies.

      September 3, 2012 at 8:17 am | Report abuse |
    • Steve

      Yes...regardless of the wild west accounts some of these nutcases write on here...he had already put away the gun by the time cops had arrived. He wasnt just shooting randomly lol. Thanks to the morons who like to make up the scene to justify something they feel they dont need to justify to begin with.

      The fact is, the cops fired 16 times and misseed 6 of those completely on a non-moving target (not taking any cover, just standing there). Maybe some of you are happy with a 62% success rate (and would explain some of the sycophantic comments), but last I checked a 62 wasnt that great.

      then again, maybe that would explain why some of these posters children are the morons that cant make change at a fast-food joint.

      September 4, 2012 at 11:22 am | Report abuse |
  15. Raul

    This a lack of judgement on the part of the police officers. Injuring nine bystanders is too high a toll. If any private citizen had drawn their firearm to defend themselves and injured nine bystanders they would probably be in jail. The police are supposed to be trained to be able to use a firearm with better judgement than the average citizen. These officers at a minimum need to loose their job for this lack of competence they have shown.

    September 2, 2012 at 1:56 am | Report abuse |
    • Tom

      I totally agree with you.. If that was a citizen, they would've lock his ass up in a heartbeat. How the hell two cops injure 9 people ? If I was the Zone Commander or Commissioner, I would've have have them attend remedial firearms training at the police academy and raise the standard passing score to 85% rather than 70% just because they have to serve and protect. Would you (in general) want someone who scored 70% with a firearm trying to save your life from a gunman.??? I think I'll take my chances

      September 2, 2012 at 7:41 am | Report abuse |
      • Rakwitiushbulbma Saritaharitha LaRapadademerious Jones

        I've noticed a lot of comments (pro and con) about this. I guess that it's easy to say either way what you would do in a situation like this. In my opinion, there is No amount of training on ANY gun range that will prepare a person for being shot at in return. I mean, it's easy to shoot at "Something" stationary, or even moving; however, when that "Something" starts returning fire, it's an all new ball game.

        September 2, 2012 at 1:25 pm | Report abuse |
      • Random question?

        Cops are allowed to carry a variety of bullets. These bullets are often designed to fragment into shards. What kind of bullets were they firing and was the collateral damage a direct result of the type of ammunition used?

        September 3, 2012 at 6:43 am | Report abuse |
      • Steve

        One of the two invilved is a veteran officer.

        The two fired 16 shots between them and they missed 6 of those completely, from around 10 feet away. I dont consider a 62% hit rate very good, at that distance or farther. Just goes to show the training you THINK these cops receive is not equal to the task at hand.

        September 4, 2012 at 11:24 am | Report abuse |
    • John

      What?? This guy was obviously out to do damage, he already killed one, who knows if he was moving to a next target or not. He pulled his gun on police, the had to shoot him, or be shot, thank goodness no one was killed by the stray bullets. But there is no easy answer, and for you to judge them.. is despicable. Walk a mile in their shoes.

      September 2, 2012 at 10:06 am | Report abuse |
      • Gunner

        John...been there, done that. They did not need to empty their magazines on that guy. Period.

        September 2, 2012 at 11:05 am | Report abuse |
        • Samantha Lee

          You may want to re-read the article. Neither officer unloaded their weapon on the suspect. And I don't know what you mean by "been there done that," but I am dating a police officer and when I asked him about this he said it followed his protocol exactly. Also, only 3 of the 9 injured were actually hit with a bullet. The other 6 were hit with shrapnel from where the bullets hit other objects.

          For everyone who is comparing these officers to "the average person" walking down the street shooting someone in self defense, that argument has no basis. These are not the average Joes with weapons, they are cops who are trained to defend themselves when a suspect points a gun at them. And on a NY City street, what would you expect them to do, just not shoot because there may be innocent people who get wounded? What if the suspect had taken one of them hostage? Like it or not, the cops did their job by the books.

          September 2, 2012 at 2:39 pm | Report abuse |
        • Opizze

          So you were there to see whether or not the suspect dropped with the first few hits? Wait I guess you've been there and done that in every firearm confrontation there ever was. I recall an incident in from a Miami shootout with the FBI involving 2 bank robbers. One robber was shot under the left arm penetrating his ribs, his aorta was severed and the bullet even traveled into his lung. The robber was effectively "dead right there" but continued to fight for several more minutes due to a combination of drug intoxication and adrenaline. The shooter in the present circumstance may not have been intoxicated (I don't I've read anything that says either way), but he was certainly experiencing an adrenaline dump, and that can make a person extremely dangerous. You don't know what order the bullets struck his body, and so the officers may not have inflicted a lethal strike until after several shots from each of them meaning the shooter may have still been standing while pointing the gun (i.e. he was still a threat). You shoot until the threat is down. Period.

          September 3, 2012 at 1:52 am | Report abuse |
        • Steve

          a 62% hit rating for a police officer is disgusting and shameful, especially at such a short distance (around 10 feet away).

          Maybe your boyfriend is an equally bad shot? Sounds to me like a case of thin blue line for him.

          September 4, 2012 at 11:26 am | Report abuse |
    • Rick Shultz

      I totally agree. Most cops can't shoot worth a beer fart in a whirlwind even on a range and these two were worse than most.
      Probably nothing much will happen because a big city administration like this is gonna protect cops even if they shoot like Elmer Fudd and have about as much judgement(kill da wabbit!! heh heh heh). Nine times count em NINE times they missed this clown from point blank range. That should be completely unacceptable performance but what do you wanna bet they wind up with cushy desk jobs?

      September 2, 2012 at 12:46 pm | Report abuse |
      • Nick

        My question to you is do you coach law enforcement on a range? Have you ever seen them qualify? Do you know the qualification standards for them? Im gonna bet the answer is no for thses simple reasons. 1. if you coached them and you can say that they suck, its your fault. 2. If you dont work with them you've not been present durning qualification. And finally 3. With your itiotic statment about "cops even suck on the range" means you dont know they have standards to keep to be able to carry that weapon.

        September 3, 2012 at 8:06 am | Report abuse |
        • Cuervo Jones

          and the score is kept by your brothers cousin in laws uncle. NYPD the biggest nest of nepotism in NY. you inter marry like hillbillies and every one thinks their Clint Eastwood. Not one wants to be Serpico though

          September 3, 2012 at 8:48 pm | Report abuse |
      • Steve

        Totally agree....a 62% hit rate from about 10 feet away with civilians in the crossfire is shameful and disgusting. These two should be put on desk duty before they actually kill a civilian, not just shoot up 9 of them.

        September 4, 2012 at 11:28 am | Report abuse |
    • CallingBS

      What these officers need is more training. The circumstances alone mean there is going to be high stress, the only thing they can do is be accurate. Without knowing if the shooter posed a direct threat to the officers or citizens it's hard to say how or what other options they had. They need to really have more training with their firearms in situation scenarios.

      September 2, 2012 at 8:57 pm | Report abuse |
  16. Mike Porter

    If not in this type of postion you donot know the feeling.When weopen is drawn a life or death is in the balance.Too manypeaceofficser die in that split second.If you have never been there keep mouth and brain open.;

    September 1, 2012 at 11:55 pm | Report abuse |
    • Keith

      Sorry dumb as s, you guys kill about 10 to 1 and most of your victums are unarmed. It is safer to be a cop in America than a farmer. Quit blowing smoke, you are not a hero and never will be.

      September 2, 2012 at 12:30 am | Report abuse |
  17. krehator

    Nothing happens.... that is the problem.

    September 1, 2012 at 11:40 pm | Report abuse |
  18. dd

    It is time to arm the people and reduce the number of cops! Let the people eliminate the scum, the drug users, the drug sellers, the thieves, the corrupt politicians. Bring back the old west when bad guys were eliminated. If the US could eliminate illegal drug, 90% of the violence in the US would stop. Lock down the borders. Execute drug dealers on the spot.

    September 1, 2012 at 11:05 pm | Report abuse |
  19. Bazoing

    These two officers were on anti-terrorist duty near the Empire State Building when this happened. That says it all: are we, the public the targets of "anti-terrorism. Could they want to establish a police state to protect us from an occasional maniac from the middle east? Police are there to police, we do need storm troopers in the streets.

    September 1, 2012 at 9:49 pm | Report abuse |
    • Bazoing

      Serves me right for uselessly shooting off my mouth. I left out the word not in 'do not need'.

      September 1, 2012 at 9:51 pm | Report abuse |
  20. darmonx

    to those defending NYPD... shootouts happen all the time with police officers. Google it and show us when a PD within the US shot up civilians in a careless gunfight. in this case.

    innocent bystanders shot by police = 9 (+ intended target)
    innocent bystanders shot by bad guy = 0 (+ intended target)

    NYPD is irresponsible.

    September 1, 2012 at 5:50 pm | Report abuse |
  21. Pnm9pnm

    Cop only need a GED becusse threre not dume anuff to be over egacated and as u go around doing things meet 4 others as u steel all there money that wood be your answer thay still go around doing what there meet 2 do that u sometimes I an maney many can see the laws all most every way at times that don't let them do what is best that's why I say at time cops should not have to fallow the laws call it officer decoration as he should make pretty much the determination on what is right in what time an place we the people r in thay should all ways have that right 4 thay whare the bage u an I don't or god an or odd or any gov.pnm.

    September 1, 2012 at 5:05 pm | Report abuse |
    • baltopaul

      Next time, huff some paint before you post, you might make more sense.

      September 1, 2012 at 11:13 pm | Report abuse |
    • Jane

      Er, what??? I have no idea what you were trying to say.

      September 2, 2012 at 1:21 pm | Report abuse |
  22. Jonh Hart

    If the cops did not put this guy down is it possible he could have shot the by-standards? He was crazy. Even though some of you dont think it, these cops have families they want to go home to. They shot three people accidentally the rest were fragments that can go anywhere.

    September 1, 2012 at 4:53 pm | Report abuse |
    • Bazoing

      He could have shot bystanders? The police did shoot bystanders. What alarms me here was that these were some sort of "antiterrorest police". What does that mean? Were they trained to cope with an act of domestic violence in the street? The guy had been shooting some distance away and was now escaping. Wouldn't it have made more sense to even let him escape and try to get him elsewhere, than to shoot in a crowd and hit 9 people?

      September 2, 2012 at 2:24 pm | Report abuse |
  23. Fed Up With Liberal Losers

    Liberal slime Mayor Bloomberg is the first on his soap box every time there is a shooting calling for more gun control...in a city where gun ownership is impossible.

    How does Mr. Slime Mayor feel now that his cops posed a greater threat to innocent lives than the gunman did?

    I am calling for Bloomberg and Kelly to IMMEDIATELY resign as they and the cops they employ obviously pose a tremendous threat to innocent lives.

    September 1, 2012 at 3:40 pm | Report abuse |
    • I Have an Idea

      This may be a good time to put yourself out of your misery.

      September 1, 2012 at 11:38 pm | Report abuse |
  24. Auraka

    NYPD and these two responding officers ARE responsible for every round that went down range. While police are not perfect, they must be held accountable when mistakes are made.

    September 1, 2012 at 12:55 pm | Report abuse |
    • Jonh Hart

      What mistake. No matter how well your trained, you cannot be trained in a real gun fight. Let me guess they were supposed to take their time lining up the shot and be killed in the mean time...right.

      September 1, 2012 at 4:46 pm | Report abuse |
      • Auraka

        Err, civilians being shot by police. Seriously I thought that might be obvious.

        September 1, 2012 at 9:22 pm | Report abuse |
        • Bazoing

          Not by ordinary police, by anti-terrorist police.

          September 1, 2012 at 9:54 pm | Report abuse |
      • pat

        Believe me theses police officers are very well trained. its just they used to be trained to be cop's out stopping bad guys. now the trainings all about controlling civilian mob's. Bloomberg's boys hit every running target in the kill zone! trained , yes I'd say the police are trained quite well. its just what they've been trained for that I worry about.

        September 1, 2012 at 10:33 pm | Report abuse |
      • Bob's your uncle!

        That is one reason to practice, on their own (though the dept. should pay), about a thousand rounds a month. Sounds like a lot, but it is only 250 rounds every week. A very small number. And h3ll yes they are supposed to line up the sights when they shoot. You can't call the bullet back. And if they are competent, they will be able to line up those sights even under stress, even knowing they are also a target.

        September 2, 2012 at 1:44 am | Report abuse |
  25. Bob's your uncle!

    In general, police officers get to practice their verbal skills every day on the job. They may get to utilize their physical skills/control techniques several times a month on the job. But they NEVER get to practice gun handling and shooting skills on the job, because when they have to shoot, it's for real. The one tool, the one skill that can impact lives forever, and they only have the ninety-rounds-every-three-months skills available that the department allows them. Why?
    An officer should feel professionally compelled to practice above and beyond whatever the dept. affords them, at their own expense. Call it professional development. They all should be so good, so confident of their ability (real confidence, not arrogance), that when things go to hell and they decide to shoot, they have a better than average chance of making sure the front sight is pointed at the target. Because officers should not be as good as the average citizen shooter. They should be better. They deserve it, we deserve it.

    September 1, 2012 at 11:08 am | Report abuse |
    • Maas

      Anyone that is or has been a regular target shooter/competitor has seen Police Officer after Police Officer display what most would call complete incompetence with the very weapons they carry day to day.

      The one's that do show "reasonable or better" skills are usually shooting enthusiasts themselves.....95% are not even close to that.

      September 1, 2012 at 11:53 pm | Report abuse |
      • Opizze

        Exactly what in the hell do you classify as reasonable or better? Even if it's 90% you're going to effectively cut that by 30% or more when it's a real gun fight. Why? You know that part of your brain that controls logic, fine motor skills and higher level thinking? Yea when you have a situation that triggers an adrenaline dump that part of your brain shuts down and the "animal brain" or that part of the brain governing basic instinct and survival kicks in. That part of your brain controls gross motor function and "flight or fight" instincts. In other words you can never be AS accurate as you practice even if you shoot a thousand rounds every week for the rest of your life because your body, as course of evolution, will only allow you to be so accurate. There may be some freakish outliers or people who quite literally do not fear death in any way, but they are probably sociopaths. Would you want them serving as cops? Even if they did make good cops there are not enough of them in existence to fill every police slot even if everyone who experiences emotions in that manner wanted to be a cop.

        September 3, 2012 at 2:05 am | Report abuse |
  26. jimmy

    The job of the police is to protect and serve the public, even at the risk of loosing thier own lives. These officers chose to protect themselves and they did not care who they took out in the process.

    September 1, 2012 at 10:08 am | Report abuse |
    • Jonh Hart

      Your an idiot police are not supposed to basically commit suicide cause there were too many people around. So easy for all you to monday morning quarterback. If those cops were your mother, father, brother so on would you want them to do what you say.

      September 1, 2012 at 4:49 pm | Report abuse |
      • jimmy

        Tell that to the nine people they shot moron.

        September 1, 2012 at 5:01 pm | Report abuse |
        • bmc

          Really, if one those 9 people who went home with a hole in thier body they didn't have that morning was his mother, father, brother so on he would be singing a different tune.

          September 1, 2012 at 5:33 pm | Report abuse |
    • Rinker

      The cops did knowingly make a decision to put their own safety over those who they are paid to protect and serve thereby wounding 9 innocent bystanders. The cops made it home that night alright but 9 citizens went to the hospital for treatment. Maybe they aren't cut out for the job they take an oath on.

      September 2, 2012 at 7:39 pm | Report abuse |
  27. Woody Stemms

    "Law Enforcement" is the Only job in the United States where, by Supreme Court decision, a candidate for a job can be turned down for scoring Too High on an intelligence test.

    Isn't that sad?

    September 1, 2012 at 10:08 am | Report abuse |
    • Opizze

      Where the hell do you people get this stuff? I work with several guys who have their master's degree in various subjects. They are cops, and they are more intelligent than most of the people in the entire world, let alone citizens of these United States.

      September 3, 2012 at 2:11 am | Report abuse |
  28. taxpayer

    FBI statistics say that a person who shoots perfectly at the range will only shoot 1/2 that good under pressure

    September 1, 2012 at 8:55 am | Report abuse |
  29. Picaman

    Anyone ccrazy enough to pull a gun on a police officer should be prepared to die although the peripheral damage is very sad and unfortunate.

    September 1, 2012 at 8:28 am | Report abuse |
  30. nokoolaidcowboy

    No matter how you slice it, the guy was right in front of the officer. The problem is their shooting stance. They appear to use a shoot and duck method.

    September 1, 2012 at 7:27 am | Report abuse |
    • baltopaul

      One officer was firing one handed, for no apparent reason.

      September 1, 2012 at 11:16 pm | Report abuse |
  31. hayden

    " But when somebody pulls out a gun, it’s self-preservation."

    But what do you do when it is the police shooting the innocent bystanders???

    September 1, 2012 at 2:53 am | Report abuse |
    • Fed Up With Liberal Losers

      You fire the mayor, Police Commissioner and the police.

      We do not need the police to protect us, we need these liberal scum bags to allow us to carry guns to protect ourselves.

      Every hear of the constitution Bloomberg you liberal piece of garbage?

      September 1, 2012 at 3:44 pm | Report abuse |
  32. krehator

    But hey...let's not be concerned with those guns. Just the guns responsible people have.

    September 1, 2012 at 2:11 am | Report abuse |
  33. Your Panties in Texas

    :When the cops shoot, innocent people DIE.

    August 31, 2012 at 11:50 pm | Report abuse |
    • Pnm9pnm

      Get your holy book say there no inacint I m inacint of all on an of my cop file n or racrit.u make men like me pay 4 what u did becusse u don't the ansir 4 u you take mine an have bin give me your time yet cop still knows an makes right I no that is true.pnm.

      September 1, 2012 at 5:24 pm | Report abuse |
  34. dale..wisconsin

    As a Marine, target aqusition is a must. I admit according to the video's the bad guy was a close range. The police freaked and perhaps the normal untriained would..I have come face to face with bad people both with explosive and automatic weapons and shot within a crowd...and killed the bad guy...it's about training, and military personnel are required to set higher standards with thier training..hard to do when someone is shooting at you..tough scene..I believe the police officerr attempt to rule with a hostage situation as well as a single shooter..the time and distance it took to un holster thier weapons and the close proximity to the bad guy ..just a freak out situtation that went totally bad for those no wishing to get shot by the thin blue needless to say any bad guy..the bad guy had one target in mind and took that out..he could have easily killed more in the building he was in then he did, he didn't expose his weapon again until he saw that he was recognized , even tho I don't know if the police even knew he did the shooting at the time..but he did pull his weapon and could have things been different ..yes. I hope this is a learning lesson for all, and my thoughts go out for the inoccent that were injured..in the military you would face a court martial shooting a bad guy with so many civilian injured..aquisition of target is a MUST....New York will be sued, and they must answer to thier training...it's obvious lacking..

    August 31, 2012 at 11:14 pm | Report abuse |
    • 99Army

      In all fairness, I have 14 yrs of military service, 6 active and am now in the reserves. I started as an MP and was SRT before going infantry later and becoming a Sniper. I admit rifle training is better in the military but not handguns and scnario training.

      I'm now a police officer and am shocked by how much weapons training we do, simunitions training and use of force in general. In the military, you are allowed far more collateral damage than on the civilian police force. I know for a fact the standards for shooting and use of force is much higher in the civilian police sector from first hand experience. The only thing that varies from dept to dept and more so state to state is the requirements for training and the amount of training that is done and unfortunately NY City is not high on that list. But to say that you cana ccurately target bad guys in a crowd with a machine gun and not hit anyone else is ridiculous.

      September 1, 2012 at 3:26 am | Report abuse |
      • Nick

        99Army- Your right about the diff between rifle and pistol shooting in the mil and law enforcement but standards are the same if not higher for the mil. Weapons training all depends on units and actual job. The US public just dont give a damn if the mil shoots a civ while engaging a ins. But put a cop in the same situation in the US and swap the ins for a criminal and ln's for US civ's and its the cops fault if they get hurt.

        September 1, 2012 at 8:42 am | Report abuse |
    • Will

      I am sure you can account for all the rounds you put down range during your alleged firefights super troop

      September 2, 2012 at 12:29 pm | Report abuse |
  35. outawork

    What happens when police shoot...innocent bystanders get shot and maybe they the get suspect and sometime themselves too.

    August 31, 2012 at 9:37 pm | Report abuse |
    • Bill In Anza

      Try the job sometime, mouth, with a bunch of panicked, screaming civilians running everywhere. Until then, shut your blowhole.

      August 31, 2012 at 11:12 pm | Report abuse |
      • krehator

        That when you stop shooting......duh.

        September 1, 2012 at 2:12 am | Report abuse |
    • Gryla

      That about sums it up!

      September 1, 2012 at 12:10 am | Report abuse |
    • CurmudgeonTx

      Basically, that is what happens when ANYONE shoots in a crowd. Unfortunately, it was necessary for the Police to end this fast. The man had just shot someone and pulled his firearm and pointed it at the Police officers. That is a no-win situation. Someone was going to die and the injuries in that crowded area were just about guaranteed. The one that is guilty in this situation is the one that first pulled a firearm and killed with it.

      September 1, 2012 at 6:18 am | Report abuse |
  36. JRinDallas

    Marksmanship training....

    Sorry – not going to resort to a cliche. The bottom line is that it's damn tough to hit a moving target at any appreciable range with a handgun. The officers had obviously had little time to make a decision and little choice to respond to an immediate threat. They did their best to deal with the situtaiton.

    Thank God no one was killed other than the shooter. God bless the officers and their families. May God help them find peace of mind and may they return to the streets confident that they made the right choice.

    August 31, 2012 at 7:51 pm | Report abuse |
    • wobbles

      Spoken like someone who has never been in a gunfight in their life. These guys put most of their rounds on target, center mass and headshots, on the move and under return fire. You can pride youself with your target shooting skills when all you've ever shot s paper, but in real life, gunfights are hectic, fast, and anything but precise.

      August 31, 2012 at 9:19 pm | Report abuse |
      • baltopaul

        No they didn't. Once officer was in a proper stance, and it looked in the security video like he was on target. The other was moving sideways while firing one handed. I'd be surprised if he hit with many rounds.

        September 1, 2012 at 11:20 pm | Report abuse |
    • Rob

      Get f***** with god already...

      August 31, 2012 at 9:49 pm | Report abuse |
    • CurmudgeonTx

      The officers will have to deal with a lot of emotional issues after this. They did not mean to injure the bystanders, and killing a man, no matter if he deserved it, is not something one can just move on from.

      September 1, 2012 at 6:19 am | Report abuse |
  37. DaveNYUSA

    What do you expect when a GED is all you need to be a COP?!

    August 31, 2012 at 6:53 pm | Report abuse |
    • Jesse C

      http://www.nypdtrainees.com/collegecredits.asp

      NYPD requires 60 college credit hours.

      August 31, 2012 at 8:02 pm | Report abuse |
    • Bill In Anza

      Another mouth with no brain behind it.

      August 31, 2012 at 11:14 pm | Report abuse |
    • 99Army

      That's sad if that's the case in NY but not in CA.

      September 1, 2012 at 3:29 am | Report abuse |
  38. Nobody N. Particular

    Of the nine people shot, six were hit by ricochet shots, and three were caught in the crossfire. If NYPD used frangible rounds then ricochets would not have happened (or would have been drastically reduced). Also, consider that out of 16 rounds fired only two managed to hit their target, and this was at a range of less than 10 feet; this would indicate that these officers failed basic marksmanship. Even under pressure, an officer should be able to hit the target at least 80% (at that range). So it really comes down to two things the NYPD needs to focus on, one is better marksmanship for its officers who carry guns, and second, better rounds which are designed not to ricochet or over-penatrate a target.

    August 31, 2012 at 6:31 pm | Report abuse |
    • LEO the Lion

      First, I am deeply sorry for the individuals who were injured as a result of the unintentional wounding by the NYPD officers who discharged their firearms in the course of their duty. I pray for those innocent citizens and their families.

      Second, really? An officer should be able to hit the target 80% of the time (at that range)? Are you an expert in critical incident shooting scenarios? Are you even slightly affiliated with law enforcement or the psychological study of critical incident shooting scenarios when the most basic of "fight or flight" comes into play, or the bodies physiological reactions to h shooting a living human being at close range, even the most heinous? Please, if you are put it out there. I am a 23 year law enforcement veteran with a college degree (Mechanical Engineering) and have been in these situations before. No easy decisions are made here...even for the marksmen.

      Do not second guess a situation that you were not involved in or even remotely allowed the slightest amount of valid information regarding distances, angles, lighting conditions, physiological reflexes, and split second decisions. If you look closely at the video the first officer puts his life in danger those first few seconds trying to alert innocent bystanders to get out of the way or take cover.

      So quickly you are there to judge, but if you are staring down the barrel of a gun or fighting a violent criminal who is stronger than you, who is trying to injure you or your family....you would be glad that these warriors are there to save you and your family. It happens every day. I have a wife and kids that I may not come home to some day because we saved your life instead of ours as part of our every day job. What about you?

      August 31, 2012 at 9:40 pm | Report abuse |
      • Rinker

        Better you than a citizen. You are the one who took the oath to serve and protect and you get paid for doing so. Common sense should tell you that it is stupid to shoot into a crowd of innocent people.

        September 2, 2012 at 7:54 pm | Report abuse |
  39. MIKE

    I was very surprised when I learned that the Police actually actively fired their guns when there were so many bystanders in the area.
    Most Police don't ever shoot their firearms at "bad guys" in their whole careers. that makes most Police who do engage in a gun battle susceptible to the same set of physical and mental reactions as anyone else who might become involved in a gunfight.
    While they may have logged lots of hours at the gun range, with stationary targets, once anyone gets in a gun battle for real two things happen right away that make their response very dangerous if others, bystanders, are nearby.
    First they experience a surge in adrenaline that normally will cause them to shoot erratically (think of a college football player playing in his first NFL game; all will say they are surprised at the "speed of the game" and their reactions on the playing field suffer as a result of their mind not being able to process what they are seeing fast enough to react properly).
    The danger in this case is that shooting erratically with so many bystanders in the area that it is almost 100% certain that innocent bystanders are going to get shot.
    Second, the Police are now engaging a "moving target". Any hunter or military vet will tell you that a moving target is a 1000% more difficult to hit with a bullet than when firing at a stationary target.
    I was not there where this event happened and I am not going to act as "judge and jury" as if I know what the correct course of action to take was at that time and place.
    However, I don't remember reading that the assailant actually fired his weapon at the Police. If the assailant did not actually fire at the Police before they fired at him, I would suggest they made a mistake in judgment by opening fire on the assailant (and 13 rounds seems a bit excessive, but my comments come with the benefit of hindsight. It is important to understand that I was not there and as such will only make generalized comments); for their was too much risk of wounding and/or killing one or more innocent bystanders. It would have been best for them to take cover and give themselves as much time as they could to both calm down and make a clearer assessment of the situation.
    If the gunman had been firing into the crowd, the Police officers would have had no choice but to fire their firearms at the gunman, even with mall the bystanders nearby, but it is my understanding that the gunman only shot (and killed) the person he had targeted on that day.
    I would expect that these Police officers superiors would have wished their patrolmen have reacted more restraint than they did; and I expect there will be some lawsuits against the Police Department for the actions of their officers.
    Few of us know the fear and stress that go along with being put in a situation where one’s own life and lives of others are on the line.
    While I am surprised to have learned that these Police officers opened fire in a crowded environment with many innocent bystanders who likely would be "collateral damage" in a gunfight under these conditions, I think it best for most of us to "take a step back" and not act as if we would definitely have acted any differently than these Police officers.
    That assessment is for their superiors and other government personnel and the legal system to determine.
    I think the one thing we can all agree on is that this was a truly screwed up situation where one individuals deadly act, set off a chain reaction of other actions and reactions that unfortunate left several innocent people injured from gunfire.
    What is unfortunate in the aftermath is that too many people are reacting as if they would have definitely handled this situation in a much better fashion, with no unwarranted injuries to innocent people, when the truth is that in a fluid instantaneous action such as this was, few truly know how they would truly react.

    August 31, 2012 at 6:04 pm | Report abuse |
    • JackieN

      But how were these officers to know when the bad guy pulled his gun that he was not going to start shooting into the crowd. It would have been silly for them to wait until innocent bystanders were down before taking offensive measures to stop him. Bystanders may have been injured, but had the assailant been allowed to get off shots first, some may have been killed. I do agree with you, however, that there will be lawsuits against the police department. That's just the type of sue-happy society we've become.

      August 31, 2012 at 9:54 pm | Report abuse |
    • CurmudgeonTx

      Ok, say we imagine the Police officers did as you suggested...took cover and waited to calm down. There is a live firearm in a crowded area and in the possession of someone that had already proven little value of human life. In a case like this, you cannot allow the gunman to control the situation. At best, he runs off or takes a hostage...at worst, he opens fire into the crowd. No, I believe the officers did what they had to do when they needed to do it.

      September 1, 2012 at 6:53 am | Report abuse |
    • Nick

      Before stating that the police only practice shooting at still targets do some research. qualification is done on sationary targets but advanced training is done also. moving while engaging targets, multipule firing positions, single hand firing(from both hands) and reloading are common practice for law enforcement. Now were they the best shooters in the nypd, don't know. Why is this being turned on the cops when the bystanders would of never be shot if that nut job never killed someone in the first part?????

      September 1, 2012 at 8:18 am | Report abuse |
    • K Lee

      Lot's of theories stated on the site but when a suspected murderer draws a gun you have to take him out. Balancing evaluating the situation and preventing further violence in a split-second seems like an impossible job. NYC cops do seem to be pretty free with the ammo quantity.

      September 1, 2012 at 4:22 pm | Report abuse |
  40. Socrates

    When the police shoots you get tha f...out of there.

    August 31, 2012 at 4:41 pm | Report abuse |
  41. HM8432

    What happens when police shoot? Guilty until proven innocent people and bystanders get hurt or die! Decades ago, I respected most cops, but nowadays they're nothing more than criminals with a badge and gun.

    August 31, 2012 at 4:16 pm | Report abuse |
    • 99Army

      And you could have done better?

      August 31, 2012 at 5:24 pm | Report abuse |
    • CurmudgeonTx

      Guilty till proven innocent? You mean the guy that was pointing a loaded, cocked and ready pistol at the cops...That pistol that had just been fired 6 times into the head of someone else? Sorry to tell you this, but anytime someone points a firearm (loaded or not) at a Police officer, the Police have the absolute right and duty to put the guy down.

      September 1, 2012 at 7:07 am | Report abuse |
  42. spierce

    NYPD is hiring. All of you who think you can do the job better, quit complaining about it and go do the job yourself!

    August 31, 2012 at 3:10 pm | Report abuse |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Moronic logic. Odds are you think you could do a better job than at least one of the presidents that have been elected in your lifetime. I don’t see you running for office.

      August 31, 2012 at 3:15 pm | Report abuse |
    • Cuervo Jones

      don't want to be a crooked lyin no shootin POS though

      September 3, 2012 at 9:01 pm | Report abuse |
  43. RealVoiceOfReason

    Shooting into a crowd of people is the wrong thing to do, period! They are Public Servants and if need be, take a bullet for the public; they knew the danger of the job whe they signed up, and not shoot into a crowd of innocent bistanders. If the Officer's Saftey trumps the public's they are supposed to protect, then there is no need for the police in the first place.

    August 31, 2012 at 2:59 pm | Report abuse |
    • MIKE

      If only it were as "black and white" as you suggest.
      Before you can get away with making such a response with any character and integrity, we would have to witness what you would have done if posed with similar circumstances with YOUR life on the line!

      August 31, 2012 at 6:14 pm | Report abuse |
    • ned duckman

      Very well said. Cops need to grow a pair and accept the fact that they may indeed need to put the lives of the public FIRST instead of their own. PERIOD. If you cannot accept that fact go into another line of work. NOBODY should have a license to kill ESPECIALLY cops who are governed by their own prejudices, relationship issues, alcoholism, drug abuse, etc. If we as a society wish to prevent or at least reduce violence then we must hold EVERYONE accountable INCLUDING the cops.

      The irony is that if more people are shot by police such actions will likely produce the result that criminals and regular citizens when confronted by law enforcement will be MORE likely to shoot (For fear of their own lives) resulting in a vicious cycle of increasing violence. The wild west policing atmosphere promoted by cop shows and cop movies NEEDS TO STOP.

      Let us not forget that about two weeks prior to this shooting NYPD Police said they approached Darrius Kennedy while he was smoking what appeared to be a marijuana cigarette. He pulled a knife at some point and was told to drop the knife and when he did not he was subsequently executed by NYPD officers. The NYPD police DESPITE the fact that there was DENSE PEDESTRIAN AND VEHICLE TRAFFIC fired TWELVE SHOTS putting the lives of many innocent civilians and passersby at high risk of being shot and killed.

      The time has come to stop the militarization of police forces in this country. Cops need to be reined in and given better conflict resolution training not just basically handed a gun and a badge and let loose to kill people for minor offenses such as smoking a marijuana cigarette.

      Did you know that the last time the US government bothered to gather any information about the problem of police misconduct in the United States was in 2002?

      Please be kind to others.

      August 31, 2012 at 9:31 pm | Report abuse |
      • Will

        Ok Ned, get back in your protective bubble!

        September 2, 2012 at 12:45 pm | Report abuse |
    • Rinker

      Thank you. Well said!

      September 2, 2012 at 8:09 pm | Report abuse |
      • Rinker

        Well said RealVoiceofReason and Ned Buckman. We deserve better police officers than we have.

        September 2, 2012 at 8:27 pm | Report abuse |
  44. Master

    The Moroms shouldnt of have a gun to begin with.

    August 31, 2012 at 2:13 pm | Report abuse |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Yes, those Moroms shouldnt of have….

      August 31, 2012 at 2:53 pm | Report abuse |
  45. mike

    I hate to say it this way, but 8 by standers wounded by the PD is better than the possible alternative. 8+ dead shot by the gunman.

    Even though training teaches to check your background before firing... sometimes there's nothing you can do about it.

    August 31, 2012 at 12:52 pm | Report abuse |
    • dartwick

      The "gun man" was running away with his gun in his pocket.

      It wasnt a shooting spree situation is was murder – a hit.
      Clearly the murder deserved no special protection one he pulled his gun out again and we shouldnt feel bad for him.

      But its absurd to suggest that the police stopped something. the police were apprehending a dangerous murderer – thats all.

      August 31, 2012 at 1:26 pm | Report abuse |
      • captain g

        No you are absurd, they stopped somebody from killing them or others.

        August 31, 2012 at 2:20 pm | Report abuse |
      • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

        Dartwick is correct.

        August 31, 2012 at 2:54 pm | Report abuse |
  46. Get Smart

    Police hitting 9 bystanders is the perfect example of police Incompetence... Period

    August 31, 2012 at 12:49 pm | Report abuse |
    • captain g

      It's very easy to give an opinion when you have no idea what you are talking about. You have no idea. It's amazing how many people give their opinions without having any experience. These people are just plain ignorant, like yourself and others.

      August 31, 2012 at 2:18 pm | Report abuse |
      • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

        You don’t have to have experience to give an opinion.. that’s why it’s called an opinion. People don’t have to commit murder to have an opinion on it.

        August 31, 2012 at 2:57 pm | Report abuse |
  47. Jag

    16 bullets = 1 target and 9 innocent civilians. Thats a horrible accuracy given the proximity in the video.

    August 31, 2012 at 12:33 pm | Report abuse |
    • captain g

      There is no such thing under shooting situations as good accuracy. Just what the hell do you know about shooting under stress. You watch too much TV

      August 31, 2012 at 2:22 pm | Report abuse |
      • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

        Tell that to the Navy Seals who put one through Osama’s eye socket when he pocked his head around the corner.

        August 31, 2012 at 2:58 pm | Report abuse |
        • steelrain

          You cannot even compare the two situations.

          1st, the police officers were reacting a shooter with his gun out and ready prior to them drawing (watch the video of him turning with the gun out vs their reaction of having to draw and fire). In the OBL raid, we're talking about one of the finest CQC trained units in the world who came in prepared for combat and who as much as you can in a combat situation, controlled the event (with the exception of the helicopter crash) from beginning to end.

          2nd, the SEALs were almost undoubtedly using either SMGs or carbines fired from the shoulder with laser sights (excerpts from the new book call out the laser sights). The police in this situation were using handguns. There is a massive difference in the control and accuracy of an SMG/carbine vs a handgun.

          September 1, 2012 at 2:25 am | Report abuse |
        • Will

          How do you know how many rounds were fired by those Seals and how many hit their target?

          September 2, 2012 at 12:50 pm | Report abuse |
  48. Josh

    This just makes me think of all the gun-lovers who claim if only more people packed a gun, they would be able to stop all of these nuts.

    Here we have police, who are indeed well trained and practice shooting constantly, but they still managed to strike 8 innocent bystanders with their bullets.

    Could you imagine what that street would have been like, if 20, 30, or 100 well-meaning people all opened fire?

    August 31, 2012 at 12:28 pm | Report abuse |
    • Thomas

      It was 9 innocent bystanders, we pay the police to be better than that, not just fire blindly as they apparently did.

      August 31, 2012 at 12:33 pm | Report abuse |
    • RI

      Who says the police "are well trained and practice all the time"? Many police don't train at all and only shoot once a year to qualify with their department. I shoot IDPA/USPSA matches almost weekly and although there are some regular LEO that show up and shoot well, most of the ones that only come once in a while are among the worst shooters. One (State Police) even told me that they were told to don't even aim, just point shoot as fast as you can... He was the worst shooter on our squad.. The LEOs that take their job seriously and shoot often are very good shooters though.

      August 31, 2012 at 12:51 pm | Report abuse |
      • Richp

        Agree, at an average practice session I shoot 500 rounds of .45 out of my 1911's., twice a month just to maintain proficiency, once the matches start that goes up depending on time available. I also agree that the LE people are the worst and they bring an attitude as well as not enough extra magazines...
        Those first magazine they carry full time should be restricted to 6 rounds or they need to go back to wheel guns.

        August 31, 2012 at 1:41 pm | Report abuse |
        • Will

          You are another gun nut who like Ri lives at the gun range but can't be mentally cleared to carry a gun

          September 2, 2012 at 12:57 pm | Report abuse |
      • Will

        You are a gun nut who shoots at fake targets and hangs out at gun ranges listening to cops tell war stories!

        September 2, 2012 at 12:54 pm | Report abuse |
    • bill ilion

      a little sensational don't ya think . what if 20, 30, 100 – I have a concealed weapons permit and hunt and shoot competition. while I'm probably the exception I hate to see people generalize about us law abiding citizens

      August 31, 2012 at 1:33 pm | Report abuse |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Ignoring the many details wrong in your post I’ll simply address your overall point. The point YOU seem to have missed is the theory goes there would be a lot less crime if more people carried. NYC has some of the strictest gun laws in the country.. and it did help the victim did it?

      August 31, 2012 at 3:02 pm | Report abuse |
    • JM

      Josh, I think the cops were definitely poorly trained, possibly incompetent. Do I think I could have done better? Possibly, considering that I shoot more handgun rounds in a year than these cops are likely to in their entire life. I shoot stationary targets as well as simulating stress situations, running to concealment and engaging target, etc. I am certain that I am more accurate than these cops appear to be, definitely better practiced.

      August 31, 2012 at 6:45 pm | Report abuse |
  49. Thomas

    I like how some think because taxpayers have no right to comment on this because they are not cops or haven't been in a shoot, don't shoot scenario. The last time I checked taxpayers pay public servants/ ie police, so if they have an opinion they have every right to express it as the employers. There are many examples where the police shoot too much and too wildly, and as a taxpayer I have every right to say it. If you don't like it, lump it. Thanks!

    August 31, 2012 at 12:11 pm | Report abuse |
    • captain g

      Hey Thomas, you are a blowhard. I never considered being a servant to anyone. The word is absurd, like you are. You are right, jerks like you and anyone else are definitely entitled to their opinion even thought they have no idea what they are talikng about and have no Police experience. By the way why don't you talk about cops who have notify realtives of a death in the family be it a spouse or child. There's nothing like approaching the residence to tell a spouse their husband will never again be home for dinner or telling a parent the same thing about their chid. Take you uppity opinion and stick it where the sun dooen't shine.

      August 31, 2012 at 2:31 pm | Report abuse |
      • spock

        THank you for proving Thomas's point.

        September 2, 2012 at 10:11 am | Report abuse |
      • Rinker

        Captain G, for all the name calling you've done and for your talking down to people; you win the prize for being the biggest absurd ignoramus.

        September 2, 2012 at 8:37 pm | Report abuse |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Well said Thomas. But as you see from some of the other responses… accountability isn’t high on their list. No wonder they want us all to keep quiet about it.

      August 31, 2012 at 3:05 pm | Report abuse |
  50. stevensb

    When police shoot ...... chaos and collateral damage . Very few in law enforcement are trained or psychologically prepared for actually engaging in armed street combat and it seems more and more lately that is something that needs to be addressed .

    August 31, 2012 at 11:54 am | Report abuse |
  51. Ke

    I don't have the time to name names however some of you people and your comments are some of the most ignorant I have seen. You talk out of your butt and have absolutely no idea what the hell you are talking about. You sit back with a know-it-all attitude and make judgements without all the facts and condem people (in this instance the police). Some of the ignorance jumps right off the page at you. No wonder tis country is in such bad shape.

    August 31, 2012 at 11:51 am | Report abuse |
  52. Drew

    It's never OK for 9 innocent bystanders to be shot by the police under any circumstances.

    August 31, 2012 at 11:44 am | Report abuse |
    • captain g

      Yes, it's not ok, but would you ratheer the cops committed suice. Your statment is off the wall.

      August 31, 2012 at 2:34 pm | Report abuse |
  53. Trigger happy and inexperineced

    That's all this is.

    Cops shoot to wound? LOL Emptying your entire magazine isn't shooting to wound.

    August 31, 2012 at 10:58 am | Report abuse |
    • captain g

      Hey stupid, cops are not trained to wound, they are trained to stop. Which I know you do not understand.

      August 31, 2012 at 2:35 pm | Report abuse |
  54. danny

    It is called friendly fire!

    August 31, 2012 at 10:53 am | Report abuse |
  55. Joel

    "Oh God, I've been shot!"

    "Don't worry, citizen, it was a cop protecting you."

    "He protected me from getting shot by shooting me? On what planet does that make sense?"

    "Well, he was protecting himself, too. It was your duty to take that bullet, you see. Go stand on the line, they you'll understand."

    "Oh, okay then. Sorry I complained. Let me know next time it's my duty to get shot in order for a cop to protect himself."

    August 31, 2012 at 10:36 am | Report abuse |
  56. Keel Hauler

    Read, jerx. The New York police use sorry-a$$ 9mm guns with 12-pound trigger pulls. That's like lifting a gallon and half of water with your index finger with every shot. It's ridiculous, and every firearms expert would agree that the resulting inaccuracy is a danger to the public. That's what happened. Bullet fragments struck some people and wounded them slightly. They were NOT SHOT. Don't succumb to media hype and outright BS. And don't pretend that you know the cops' jobs better than they do, because you only know that you hate them.

    August 31, 2012 at 9:13 am | Report abuse |
    • larry

      keel hauler – you, sir, are a moron if not a bed-wetter. not shot? what would you call getting hit by a bullet? go home a play soldier with you precious guns.

      August 31, 2012 at 10:00 am | Report abuse |
    • JM

      keelhauler, you started off sensibly with the comment about the so-called "NY" trigger, that was intended to make negligent discharges more difficult, but resulted in accuracy getting far worse. But then you started ranting about anyone criticizing the cops, and you began foaming at the mouth.

      Sorry, but you're wrong, the marksmanship of the cops was lousy, the number of shots fired was far in excess of the number necessary to take down the target. However, they are far from unique, some months back in the Dallas area, transit cops also 'sprayed and prayed' at a suspect, hitting him a few time while multiple cops emptied their guns. It happens with appalling regularity. One would think that PDs across the country would start putting some emphasis on shooting skills, but I don't hear anything about it happening.

      August 31, 2012 at 6:51 pm | Report abuse |
      • baltopaul

        A lot of police departments went to Glock double-action only because they're supposedly idiot-proof. No safety to fumble with, nobody re-holstering a weapon without de-cocking it. The down side is that they're terribly difficult to shoot accurately, as they have the action of a toy cap pistol.

        September 1, 2012 at 11:26 pm | Report abuse |
  57. Oscar Pitchfork

    Most cops are just some misguided dude who thinks it would be cool to have that kind of power. (I say this after watching them for over 40 years). Other than that, most of them ARE NOT brave, and shoot like scared little girls when their position and authority is challenged. Remember the Amadou Diallo shooting in 1999? He was a Guinean immigrant who KNEW to present his papers (in a wallet) to authorities when confronted. He was hit by 19 of the 41 shots fired by overeager and/or frightened police officers. It ain't being brave when you behave like that.

    August 31, 2012 at 7:58 am | Report abuse |
    • Steve

      Most of the comments from these expert arm chair quarterbacks are funny. How many of you have ever been in a position where you had to make a decision to shoot, not shoot, or how many times do I need to shoot to protect yourself or someone else? Try it, take a class, or better yet go stand on the line. You WILL have a different attitude when you come back to the faceless CNN boards.

      August 31, 2012 at 8:24 am | Report abuse |
      • Wayne

        We have but our servicemen and women are trial for murder when they accidental kill cilivians in combat. Our goverment has even put in "rules of engagement" to tgell when they can shoot even while being shot at! My point is that if we except this from our military in combat when should except more from our police against it's own citizens! Thank their UNION!

        August 31, 2012 at 8:53 am | Report abuse |
        • Sarah

          Hey! I'm a police officer! Where do I sign up for this supposed union you speak of? We don't have a union. Do your research... The laws that protect police officers in self-defense cases are the same as a private citizen. Police aren't protected any more than your everyday Joe. It's up to the courts to decide if they were negligent in their actions, to include a jury. Put the blame on them if you don't like how these situations are handled. Also if you've never been in a shoot/don't shoot situation you have no right to even comment on the subject.

          August 31, 2012 at 10:32 am | Report abuse |
      • Keel Hauler

        Well said.

        August 31, 2012 at 9:08 am | Report abuse |
      • Keel Hauler

        Steve, well said.

        August 31, 2012 at 9:14 am | Report abuse |
      • Judge Dredd

        You are absolutely correct Steve. All these arm chair genius' that think they know it all. Must be democrats/Liberals which is funny because they don't even own firearms and couldn't fight or win a WAR if they had to. They just run their jibs and stink up America. Where I come from $hit just happens and you do the best to recover. Hey New York and MORON BLOOMFIELD, How is your GUN LAWS WORKING????? Couldn't happen to a better yankee poophole!!!! Have a good day!!!!

        August 31, 2012 at 10:58 am | Report abuse |
        • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

          Judge Dredd
          1)I’m not a democrat or a liberal.
          2)I have my CWP
          3)I own 3 fire arms.
          4)Try again.

          August 31, 2012 at 3:11 pm | Report abuse |
        • rabid wombat

          Big gulps are down 20% in NYC.

          September 1, 2012 at 11:29 pm | Report abuse |
      • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

        Steven I’ve taken those classes (assuming you mean the conceal carry and various other class available a local gun ranges) and you couldn’t be more wrong. Google Jacksonville Fl, armed robbery stopped by CWP

        August 31, 2012 at 3:09 pm | Report abuse |
      • rabid wombat

        That's why you train. You train because you won't have time to think about what to do when you have to act on the street. You also train so you don't run down the sidewalk blazing away gansta style, shooting an entire magazine one-handed.

        September 1, 2012 at 11:28 pm | Report abuse |
      • Rinker

        Steve, It is never funny when innocent people are shots by cops.

        September 2, 2012 at 8:45 pm | Report abuse |
  58. Phrank

    I think poeple are forgetting that these officers are TRAINED PROFFESIONALS! If you hire a roofing contractor (PROFFESIONAL) and he nails every 3rd shingle on up-side down, would you pay him? I don't care if the officers were caught up in the moment, the fact remains that they are paid proffesionals. If they aim a laser gun with the same accuracy that they shoot a 9mm, then a laser speeding ticked should never stand in a court of law. The chance are 9 to 1 that they are hitting the car behind you. Just my 2 cents.

    August 30, 2012 at 11:53 pm | Report abuse |
    • CommonSense

      Yes, because shingling a roof is EXACTLY like shooting an armed person from more than 15 feet away.

      August 31, 2012 at 1:03 am | Report abuse |
      • Sarah

        hahahaha nice retort!

        August 31, 2012 at 10:33 am | Report abuse |
      • rabid wombat

        Nah, nail guns are only good out to about 10'.

        September 1, 2012 at 11:30 pm | Report abuse |
    • sonny

      IN tn my state the police would and have shot with kids being around..there so bent on the power they have they don't stop and think they just pull and shoot and most couldn't hit a barn in a open field.just my opinion

      August 31, 2012 at 9:21 am | Report abuse |
      • Sarah

        Right because police love killing innocent children... You're an idiot....

        August 31, 2012 at 10:33 am | Report abuse |
      • Nick

        You are talking about a gun fight. What you just said makes no sense. Not discharging their when innocents around. You live in a fantasy world and should come back to reality quickly. life is life

        September 1, 2012 at 5:57 am | Report abuse |
    • Jules

      That argument would only hold true if they were required to use their radar guns only after running a 200 meter sprint to get their adrenalin going, and only against drivers that were actively trying to run them over. Otherwise, the two situations have nothing in common.
      There is a huge difference between firing a weapon, and firing a weapon while under duress and in an uncontrolled environment. And yes, that includes trained professionals. If you don't trust the cops, then ask any soldier and see what answer they give you.

      August 31, 2012 at 9:42 am | Report abuse |
      • Phrank

        All I can say is "They knew the job was dangerous when they took it!" Also if an officer in not competent with their weapon after running some then they don't belong carrying a weapon. The fact remains that very poor judgement was used on the part of the officers. Until they confronted the perp, he was not showing a weapon. He was fleeing the scene. We can all sit back and armchair quarter back this thing....but the fact remains that the officers are responsible for every round that comes out of the muzzle of their weapon until it stops.
        If you are going to defend the obvious lack of common sense here then I have an exercise for you at home.....It goes like this, replace your fly swatter with a meat tenderizer. (The kind that looks like a hammer with spikes on it) Every time a fly lands on the back of your hand.....GET 'EM! It won't take you long to figure out that you need to know what is beyond your target. And just think you aren't even a TRAINED PROFESSIONAL!

        September 2, 2012 at 12:30 am | Report abuse |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Police training in firearms is rather minimal actually. Unless you are a special response team you don’t get any more training than the average citizen can get at the local gun range.

      August 31, 2012 at 3:12 pm | Report abuse |
  59. Ed Charles

    Leave it to terroristic police to murder innocent people!!!!

    August 30, 2012 at 11:49 pm | Report abuse |
    • Bill in Cincinnati

      NO INNOCENT PEOPLE WERE MURDERED.

      August 31, 2012 at 2:43 am | Report abuse |
      • sonny

        not this time but innocent people were hit.BUT what about next time cops use there weapons innocent people could be hit by a stray bullet .police should never use there weapons when innocent people are close at hand.NEVER

        August 31, 2012 at 9:24 am | Report abuse |
        • Sarah

          Ok next time we will let the lunatic with the gun continue shooting until the streets clear.... stupid..... I hope you don't vote...

          August 31, 2012 at 10:35 am | Report abuse |
        • DAVECOPPERTOP

          just remember those words when your house is being invaded !!! you will want the cops to shoot, please use your heads, if guns were only in the hands of criminals, what defense would we have !!!! ok now dont shoot me please dont be a ASS all of your life

          August 31, 2012 at 3:54 pm | Report abuse |
  60. George

    Hello, i think that i noticed you visited my weblog thus i got here to go back the favor?.I'm trying to find things to improve my site!I guess its adequate to use some of your ideas!!

    August 30, 2012 at 8:23 pm | Report abuse |
  61. Gnuut

    What happens when police shoot is that they miss a lot.

    Police departments across the country have reduced their firearms training standards over the years, because practice takes time, and costs money, to the point where most cops are fairly lousy shots. It's also not politically correct to assume that cops will need to use deadly force, and in fact, most of them never fire a shot outside the range during their careers.

    Was this incident a justified use of deadly force? Most likely it was, but that doesn't mean that they did a good job of it – they hit NINE other people for pete's sake.

    August 30, 2012 at 7:28 pm | Report abuse |
    • Bo

      Gnut, you don't have any idea whether or not the 9 people were wounded by individual rounds from the officer's guns, or fragments from 1 or 2 rounds hitting the pavement and then striking multiple victims.

      August 30, 2012 at 9:51 pm | Report abuse |
      • Bill in Cincinnati

        ALSO, i have not heard how many bullets hit the target threat who was shooting at the time also, 3 shots at the police. I am sure of that count, with a 45 semi auto pistol – ouch! I could not tell from the video i saw if those two police were wearing vests but it dd not look like it.

        August 31, 2012 at 2:48 am | Report abuse |
    • skastenbaumcnn

      @Gnuut – There is some validity to your statement. Both the police studies and former NYPD Sgt. I interviewed for this story said that accuracy is an issue for a number of reasons... some of it has to do with the amount and type of refresher training average street beat police officers get each year. It's one thing to shoot at a target on a firing range. It's another thing to shoot at a moving target in a chaotic environment with innocent civilians nearby and a gun pointed at your face. But every time you send an officer for training that's one more day they can't be out on the street patrolling. The training decision becomes a public safety and budgetary issue. The other major factor in shooting accuracy in an event such as the one outside the Empire State Building is the adrenaline dump anyone experiences the moment you go into self-preservation mode. it most definitely impacts your senses and ability to shoot accurately.

      August 31, 2012 at 10:10 am | Report abuse |
  62. voicomp

    I know several officers of various ranks in a number of different police departments. They all say they are trained to shoot at center of mass and keep shooting until the threat is clearly terminated. If that is what you are supposed to do those officers did it (and they only did it after they became likely near future victims should they have failed to draw and fire). If NYPD issues 9mm handguns (as seems to be the case), the department may have made an error in that decision since the 9mm has a reputation for overpenetrating (thereby creating a hazard for anything beyond the target). IMHO, there really is no way to have a shootout on a crowded city street and guarantee no collateral damage.

    August 30, 2012 at 6:10 pm | Report abuse |
    • Bill in Cincinnati

      police are furnished with "light loads". Bullets with smaller than normal aounts of gunpowder. that is why it so often takes more than one shot and they are told to keep shooting until the threat is gone. ONLY police can get these rounds from a manufacturer. Some people who reload ammo make light loads for target practice. Also police us fragmentation ammo that splatters when it hits anything.

      August 31, 2012 at 2:52 am | Report abuse |
      • J.P. Beavers

        I don't know what fantasy you have been reading but the police do not use "light loads" most departments use Speer Gold Dot ammunition, because its known for having good stoping power.

        August 31, 2012 at 6:13 am | Report abuse |
      • Sarah

        Bullets to do not "splatter" when they hit something. They fragment after penetration so they are less likely to go "through and through." Where do people come up with this stuff?

        August 31, 2012 at 10:38 am | Report abuse |
      • voicomp

        maybe thats the case where you are but the officers for the city I work in are issued +P ammo (meaning extra powder).

        August 31, 2012 at 11:21 am | Report abuse |
      • CC

        Bill,
        you obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Police are furnished with "full" power loads. There may be some depts that use a lighter load for training but thats it. Actually the NYPD uses whats called a +P round which has a little more power than a standard 9mm round. Most depts that use a 9mm use the same +P rounds.

        August 31, 2012 at 1:01 pm | Report abuse |
    • Jim-Fed in DC

      Actually this is incorrect. The 9mm parabellum round used by NATO, most US military units and the majority of domestic police agencies is noted for it's lack of penetration. That is why most police shootings involve multiple shots-1 9mm round rarely stops anyone and is almost never immediately incapaciting. However it is the choice of many agencies and departments because it rartely overpenatrates and goes through the target and hits the innocent bystander. 9mm is a fairly weak round-especially compared to heavier 10mm (40 cal) or the venerable .45 caliber round. However, the previous writer was correct in that most departments have greatly curtailed training due to cost. My agency went just the other direction quite correctly (i think) stating that bullets are cheaper than law suits so train often and realistically and expend all of the bullets needed to get the right training and therefore insure the right outcome in an armed confrontation. (and yes I carry a .45-why? i was shot with a 9mm and didn't know it at first and it didn't even break my stride when running...)

      August 31, 2012 at 8:07 am | Report abuse |
  63. calirex164

    look you take away the cops guns then what do you have.....a bunch of rent a cops and what do rent a cops do....nothin they hardly stop crime so your guys whole take away gun control is stupid if you where in their shoes you would do the same thing everyone would, if you have a gun pointed in your face and you have a gun at your side your gunna shoot him/her.Jim J and J you two are the only ones that make sence.

    August 30, 2012 at 3:27 pm | Report abuse |
    • MrKalifornia

      Let's see, the police shoot one guy 25 times and California only allows 10 round magazines. That means I'd have to change magazines twice to take care of one armed intruder. Why do politicians think 10 rounds is good enough for me but the NYPD thinks 25 is necessary for one individual?

      August 30, 2012 at 4:06 pm | Report abuse |
      • Lawrence

        The man was only shot 10 times....Do your home work.

        August 30, 2012 at 5:12 pm | Report abuse |
      • Bill in Cincinnati

        The 10 round limit is for you and me, not the police, they are only limited by what their weapon was designed to hold

        August 31, 2012 at 2:54 am | Report abuse |
      • Judge Dredd

        Good job MrKalifornation, and you retards wonder why your poophole went broke.
        Geeezz, my GOD Liberals are just too smart for the rest of us.

        August 31, 2012 at 11:13 am | Report abuse |
  64. armchair quarterback

    Firstly, the nypd does not carry .40 caliber, they carry 9mm. The problem with those is that they do not have a lot of stopping power. Pistols are inherently inaccurate but add to that a 12 pound trigger pull double action only weapon and no amount of training will compensate for that. Add to that a target that is moving at approximately 20 feet away, your heart rate that also adds to the movement of your gun and having a shootout in a crowded area and there is a good chance bystanders can get hurt.

    Very easy to say the police confronted that man improperly. The police didn't know what they had. It could easily have been mistaken identity, so the police were correct in confronting him. You do not want to request additional resources unless you know what you have.

    People have no idea about policing yet are able to give variable opinions of policing based on what they learned on television or the movies. Someone once told me that policing is a lot like making sausage. You don't want to see how its done. Many of these comments are bourne out of one too many traffic tickets or not liking how the police talked to you. That sucks. But what the police did here was absolutely correct. Instead of blaming the police, put the blame where it lies. The clown that put five rounds into the head of his ex-coworker and then aimed a gun at the police.

    August 30, 2012 at 2:55 pm | Report abuse |
    • Paul

      Hey, armchair quarterback: Your name is fitting as you talkout your wazooo.
      NYPD standard issue weapon is a Glock 22- .40 cal. and a Glock 27- .40 cal

      August 30, 2012 at 3:07 pm | Report abuse |
      • Armchair Quaterback

        Maybe you should do a little research before you spout out of your "wazoo". They carry for on duty weapons either a. Glock – Model 19
        b. Smith & Wesson – Model 5946
        c. Sig Sauer – Model 226
        All 9mm all DAO with a 12 pound trigger pull. The ammunition is 128 grain +P jacketed hollow points. I know exactly what I am talking about when it comes to the NYPD. (Some of the older officers carry .38s which are no longer authorized except for those that were grandfathered in) And no, the 9mm does not have plenty of stopping power. 10mm or .45 cal would be the way to go. Obviously you shoot someone in the head and thats the end. However, it would take more than one shot to bring and average sized man down with a 9mm round, regardless if its a hollowpoint or a +p round.

        August 31, 2012 at 9:22 pm | Report abuse |
    • JD

      9mm has plenty of stopping power. Sorry. And the problem we see here is lack of training on the part of the NYPD. Just because they shoot once a year to qualify does not mean they can shoot accurately under pressure as is seen in this event. No, most cops are not good shots nor are they given the time and training needed to be good shots. Hate to say it but civilians have a much better hit record than cops do when thing like this happen.

      August 30, 2012 at 3:18 pm | Report abuse |
      • skastenbaumcnn

        @JD Listen to what Negus has to say about this in my story.

        August 30, 2012 at 3:53 pm | Report abuse |
      • Gnuut

        In a documented FBI incident used in their training, a bad guy was hit over forty times with 9mm handgun ammo, shotgun blasts, and a rifle, and still lasted long enough to kill and maim multiple agents. That incident is why the FBI now carries 10mm and .40-caliber handguns.

        A 9mm handgun is no more powerful than the .38 special revolver used fifty years ago, and is NOT a man-stopper by any stretch of the imagination. Officers are trained to keep shooting until the aggressor goes down and stops aggressing, because you almost always have to hit the bad guys several times to stop them.

        August 30, 2012 at 7:34 pm | Report abuse |
        • nit-the-wit

          Well, all those shots underscore the absence of marksmanship. One 9mm through the heart. That's all. If surgeons use robots, maybe police should use robotic car-mounted sniperguns that do not tremble. Using laser and ballistics computing will lead to an extremely high accuracy, even for a moving target. Fighter planes have it, too.

          August 31, 2012 at 1:46 am | Report abuse |
      • Bo

        JD, I'd love to see you post a verifiable report that says civilians are better shots than cops. Oh, and while you're at it, could you also put in all the other training and knowledge that officers have to have, in addition to being able to use firearms? I'll bet you wouldn't have the backbone to critize a doctor on how they perform their job, but you're willing to stick your nose into a law enforcement officer's job w/o any training of your own.

        August 30, 2012 at 9:55 pm | Report abuse |
        • bobo

          Really? .... if you went to a to have a tattoo removed and woke with both kidneys gone... you wouldn't complain...
          hmmm are those your kidneys on ebay?
          The problem isn't cops or their training. The problem is accountability.
          If Citizen John Q. Public open fired in a crowd, even acting in good faith without malice... would he walk away?
          Now an Officer (well meaning, well trained), a public servant, trained as a professional does the same...
          Are OUR Police held to the same standards as we the public are? Being trusted trained professionals shouldn't they have a higher standard? Or even an equal standard? When did it become practice to hold them a a lower standard?
          This applies to the Officers that use Tasers(c) on 5 year-old and 90 year-old grandmothers.
          Would a parent that used a taser on their own child walk away saying 'insufficient training' was to blame?
          When did training and privilege remove all individual accountability?
          The QUESTION should be; if a private citizen had fired all the shots, how would this be handled? It should proceed the same way now.

          August 31, 2012 at 2:50 am | Report abuse |
      • AmFem

        The offender was a moving target running amongst dozens of running and screaming people. No police force can possibly guarantee that no innocents would be shot under theses conditions! The officers involved in this incident, I'm sure, are haunted by what happened. Don't judge them. If these officers were faced with anything similar to running into the twin towers, they would. Armchair quarterbacks...who needs you?

        August 30, 2012 at 10:08 pm | Report abuse |
      • Bill in Cincinnati

        i watched the video several times. the only "problem" I saw was the criminal surprised the cops He came around a light pole and stuck his hand in the bag and when he rounded the planter he pretty quickly pulled it out and started firing before the cops really knew he was the suspect. the construction worker opointed at him (but the street was crowded) It looked like the officer closet aske the construction worker what the suspect was wearing to help single him out and that is about at the same time that the criminal turned around with the gun in his hand. The officer had their hands on their weapons still in their holsters at that point, but quickly drew and ducked and zig zagged to establish a flank and to avoid getting shot, while doing thier best to fire a few shots at the suspect (who was firing at them now) to get him at least on the defenseive if not hit him. The criminal fired the second shot and the officer on his right got his footing and shot the guy first then the second officer nearer the pole got a hit on the guy and it appeared that a third round dropped him. could have been more thatn a third round, the criminal was kinds jerky by then.

        August 31, 2012 at 3:05 am | Report abuse |
        • GATECH

          Bill, the gun man DID NOT fire any bullets at the cops. That has even been stated by the police after the incident.

          September 3, 2012 at 11:48 pm | Report abuse |
    • Scott

      Well said QB. That was a completed long bomb at the end zone. Couldn't agree with you more.

      August 30, 2012 at 9:21 pm | Report abuse |
  65. bs1

    The police failed before they fired a shot since they initiated a confrontation in a crowded area when no weapon was visible, and they had not witnessed anything. Prior to initiating the confrontation they had a suspect leaving the area, not an active shooter as some claim. They should have followed from a distance, radioed ahead to other police, etc rather than initiating a confrontation in a crowd.

    August 30, 2012 at 2:35 pm | Report abuse |
    • J

      This is a Monday morning QB post at its best. First, you weren't there and have no right to say they should have done this or that. And had they taken your advice and not confronted the man in the crowd and then he pulled his gun and started shooting the crowd, you would be the first to say they should have confronted him immediately. Police are human and they do a dangerous job. We need to give them the benefit of the doubt with a fair level of scrutiny. However, sitting at home watching CNN with a bowl of chips on your lap doesn't make you qualified to question the action of men who took live fire from a murderer.

      August 30, 2012 at 3:05 pm | Report abuse |
      • Steve

        a 62% hit rate at a distance of ten to twelve feet is shameful (completely missed 6 out of 16 shots). I would think you would expect more out of those who are there to supposedly protect you and are equipped with weapons meant to kill.

        Then again, maybe you are just one of the sheep being led around and believing everything you are told.

        September 4, 2012 at 11:41 am | Report abuse |
    • skastenbaumcnn

      @bs1 Actually, it was a construction worker who alerted cops to the initial murder. He has been interviewed by multiple news organizations. He pointed the gunman out to the two police officers and told them the man had just shot someone.

      August 30, 2012 at 3:52 pm | Report abuse |
    • Bill in Cincinnati

      Talk about Monday morning QB, you are on Thursday already.

      August 31, 2012 at 3:07 am | Report abuse |
    • Sarah

      How many more people would you have liked him to shoot before the police pulled out their guns to protect everyone?

      August 31, 2012 at 10:42 am | Report abuse |
      • Steve

        He shot one person that prior accounts say he had an issue with, from their days in working in his ex-office. He shot the individual with a double tap (one to the head, one to the chest), placed the gun back in his bag and had began to leave when police arrived.

        When confronting the man, he pulled the gun from the bag and the two officers opened fire, achieving an astoundingly bad 62% hit rate, completely missing 6 of the 16 shots from a distance of ten to twelve feet.

        Shameful.

        September 4, 2012 at 11:39 am | Report abuse |
    • citizen

      Has anyone thought of police uniforms being outfitted with a "siren" that could warn pedestrians that guns are drawn and to take cover. That's why police cars have sirens. Seems something can be invented that could quickly be set off in these crowded street encounters. Police officers first duty is to serve and to protect. Warning is a form of protection, too.

      August 31, 2012 at 1:29 pm | Report abuse |
  66. Mr. Magoo

    Cops are thugs. They're very often low intelligence power tripping neanderthals. Not all cops are bad, it's just that 99.9999% of them give the rest a bad name.

    Just remember, cops aren't there to protect you. They're there to enact the will of the power hungry politicians.

    August 30, 2012 at 2:27 pm | Report abuse |
    • Walk Among Us

      and to play out their own power fantasies.

      August 30, 2012 at 2:34 pm | Report abuse |
    • Gnuut

      Mr. Magoo – have you been taking your paranoia meds?

      August 30, 2012 at 7:38 pm | Report abuse |
    • Bo

      Oh, shut up. You have no stats to back up your ridiculous rhetoric.

      August 30, 2012 at 9:48 pm | Report abuse |
    • PAJ

      Sad but true. The police are not there to protect the innocent. They are there to carry out the will of the state.

      August 31, 2012 at 2:59 am | Report abuse |
    • Nick

      Everyone has his/her own a idea on how this should of played out and how they would of done it. Or better yet, everyone is now a ballistics expert. So voice your oppinions, please do. But remember this, those cops you are bashing right now will still give there lives for yours any day of the week.

      August 31, 2012 at 6:35 am | Report abuse |
      • Steve

        Really? Because it looks to me in this scenario like they didnt give the general population a second thought.

        Maybe its the 62% hit rating, the missing 6 out of 16 shots, that gives me pause. They were actually a bigger threat to the citizenry than the target.

        September 4, 2012 at 11:35 am | Report abuse |
    • Sarah

      Please don't ever call the police for help. What's the name of your militia?

      August 31, 2012 at 10:43 am | Report abuse |
    • captain g

      Go to Cuba.

      August 31, 2012 at 2:36 pm | Report abuse |
    • jim

      we'll see how you feel when some depressed idiot has a gun pointed at you..i'm sure a policeman
      firing off so end the guy won't be so repugnant and you won't be so arrogant...

      September 2, 2012 at 10:15 am | Report abuse |
      • Steve

        He shot one person, put the gun away and was leaving when cops arrived. He had a gripe with one person from his ex-office and took care of it, at least to him.

        When they fired on him he was roughly ten to twelve feet away and they only managed a 62% hit rating, missing six out of sixteen shots completely. A police force with a hit rating like that is far more dangerous to the general populace than most criminals.

        September 4, 2012 at 11:34 am | Report abuse |
        • Nick

          Steve- I hope you are a gun owner and a experienced shooter. And adding real life combat into your list that makes you an expert on shooting and gun manipulation or other wise your just whining about stuff you trully dont understand. This was not a movie style shoot out. Bullets dont alwas hit their intended target.
          And what does it matter if he put his gun away after kill his ex-coworker. HE STILL KILLED SOMEONE IDIOT!

          September 5, 2012 at 4:59 am | Report abuse |
  67. Michael

    Good Start to the article, but wow that was an abrupt end. I would triple the length!

    August 30, 2012 at 2:08 pm | Report abuse |
  68. PoliceViolanceMustStop

    Gun Control is the means to be able to hit your " Target " not innocent people standing 50 feet away... a .40cal hollow point bullet is strong enough to knock a man down.. it does not take 25 bullets to stop a bad guy... Police use excessive force when more than 4 shots are fired... This is my thoughts on shooting bad guys...

    August 30, 2012 at 1:59 pm | Report abuse |
    • mudcat

      Not so easy with adrenalin. Try this. Set up a swing target(moves when hit) about 30 feet away. Shoot and practice until you can hit it 4 out of 5 shots. Now( and I've seen one of these) connect a paint ball gun and a 4 second timer. Put your gun on table next to you. Trigger the timer, grab your gun, if you don't hit the target you will be shot by the paint gun in 4 seconds. You will likely empty your gun and not hit the target. That is what happens when you add that penalty aspect.

      I also heard of one of these training targets that had a skunk spray in the paint ball. Nasty, really get the adrenaline flowing.

      August 30, 2012 at 2:18 pm | Report abuse |
      • Steve

        Gee and here I thought cops were supposed to be trained for that sort of thing...silly me.

        Guess they are just like any other civilian with a gun and very little training...oh wait...

        September 4, 2012 at 11:31 am | Report abuse |
    • J

      So then we should issue police 4 shot magazines? You sir, might be the most ignorant person I have ever met.

      I do agree that gun control is hitting your target. But I would be willing to bet that you couldn't hit water if you fell from a boat if an armed murderer starting shooting at you.

      Also, NYPD issues 9mm Glocks, not .40sw. Also stopping a target is all about shot placement, not just hits on target. Hits to not vital areas may not incapacitate an assailant.

      Also, it is spelled "violence", not "violance" so your ignorance and agenda are both shown just through your chosen name.

      August 30, 2012 at 3:08 pm | Report abuse |
    • Jim J

      Well, Mr. PoliceViolenceMustStop, your thoughts on shooting bad guys is incorrect. You cannot set a number on how many shots it will take to end a threat. The police are trained–and rightly so–to continue until the threat is eliminated. Some people can be stopped by a lucky shot to the right part of the body, but such accuracy in a gun battle is extreme luck. Even the best marksmen don't shoot in a gun battle anywhere as well as they do on the range. Police don't aim for small targets such as an eye or a hand in such situations, but are trained to aim for center body mass. Aiming for the chest is much more likely to hit the person than aiming for the head or a limb. Police do not shoot to wound. If they wound, they wound. However, the accuracy required to wound instead of give a fatal shot cannot be expected of even the best shooters when in a real-life confrontation. Of couse, none of this applies to a SWAT sniper aiming with a propped weapon shooting from a safe position with a scoped rifle (more accurate than a handgun). Most people don't understand how guns work in a shootout. In the movies, bullets are smart–they know if a person is standing in front of a plate glass window and will blow the man backward through it, or if the man is standing behind a railing and will pull him forward to tumble over the railing to the ground below. In reality, handgun bullets don't blow people backward, much less pull them over a railing. If a bullet blew someone backward, then by Newton's 3rd Law, the shooter's arm would be knocked backward by an equal force, possibly ripping it off. Doesn't happen. Meanwhile, a person can be hit by a number of rounds and still be functioning. You could be shooting someone who is charging you with a knife. He could be drug crazed and perhaps you've already blown his heart to pieces, but he's still coming because his nervous system is still working. He's going to die but he's still a threat to you. So, several officers could be shooting a person who is shooting or threatening other people with a gun, and quite a few rounds could be expended before the threat has been stopped. And, often, police are more aware of threats through their training than regular citizens are aware of. You've probably seen videos of police screaming at a man face down on the ground to show his hands. If his hands are hidden, he's a threat. Tests have shown that such a man could raise up and fire a hidden gun before the police can even realize he's got a gun. The public needs to learn a lot more about police work before they can reasonably sit in judgment about what happens in these confrontations.

      August 30, 2012 at 3:13 pm | Report abuse |
      • CTYank

        Look at what you wrote. Featureless sprawl of verbiage.

        It'd help you communicate (the purpose here) if you organized your thoughts and formed paragraphs communicating them. Otherwise you are expecting the reader to do this. Reader will say "Next, please."

        Do your part, and don't demand such attention.

        August 30, 2012 at 4:44 pm | Report abuse |
      • You ignorant people...

        Couldn't agree more with Jim J.
        You people blaming the police and saying that they are Neanderthals: I invite you to go through their training and to do their jobs on a daily basis. Once you become excellent at that, you'll be allowed to give your opinion.
        Before then, keep watching movies and police TV series.

        August 30, 2012 at 8:14 pm | Report abuse |
        • bcinwi

          im ex military and i guarantee you their training is nothing any average joe couldn't do....cops are criminals with a badge....wanna commit crimes legally? become a cop, i see overweight cops everyday, training means nothing

          August 30, 2012 at 11:51 pm | Report abuse |
    • skastenbaumcnn

      @PoliceViolenceMustStop – Have you watched the video of the shooting? Did you see how the two officers suddenly find themselves looking down barrel of a gun? Notice how at least one of the offices is instantaneously looking around for some cover before he makes the split second decision to pull out his service weapon and shoot?

      August 30, 2012 at 3:56 pm | Report abuse |
      • ooqoo

        I'm sorry, but as a gun owner and advocate of gun ownership along with gun safety, I question your justification.

        Someone shoots someone dead. The gunman is pointed out to you. You follow gunman. Now, you are on a crowded street AND GUNMEN CLEARLY IS NOT A THREAT TO PASSERSBY; so you have a choice. Follow or engage. Why would you engage? THE DECISION TO ENGAGE ENDANGERED CIVILIANS!!!

        Now, if you made the choice to engage, here is the big question. WHY WERE YOUR GUNS NOT ALREADY DRAWN AND TRAINED ON THE SUSPECT SINCE YOU KNOW 1. HE HAS A GUN AND 2. HE USED IT TO MURDER SOMEONE?

        So you engaged w/o your guns drawn & trained on the target, so now you're basically in a wild gunfight and you're just popping off shots while you're trying to find cover. Sorry skastenbaumcnn, you are wrong.

        To some of the other comments about the firearms used – at much greater distances I obtain groupings where if aiming at center mass a suspect would be hit. With gun drawn and aimed, when the suspect pulled his firearm, no more than two shots each would have been necessary and these two shots would have been fired before the suspect would have been able to lift his gun fully to fire.

        This is a direct result of NYC not paying it's police force. The lower salaries and take people they shouldn't. Great to know these cops will be able to carry firearms even after they retire from the force, yet responsible gun owners cannot carry at all.

        August 31, 2012 at 10:36 am | Report abuse |
        • captain g

          You are totally incoherent, you gotta keep taking your medication, jerk

          August 31, 2012 at 2:40 pm | Report abuse |
        • CallingBS

          Thanks...you make great sense. Seriously!

          September 2, 2012 at 9:06 pm | Report abuse |
    • captain g

      Your thoughst come from a complete idiot

      August 31, 2012 at 2:37 pm | Report abuse |